MN-SEN Debate on KSTP

"Furthermore, Al replied that Mike was misquoting him when he was discussing specific aspects of Rep. John Murtha's plan which would have established specific benchmarks and penalties if they weren't met."

What exactly was Ciresi misquoting? Franken said that he "agreed with Bush" and opposed Murtha's withdrawal plan.

I am pretty sure that Al Franken is the biggest liar to every run for statewide office in Minnesota.

[Moved from an early thread]
Submitted by grassroots.progressive (not verified) on February 10, 2008 - 11:25am.
Speaking of the economy... I'm watching the KSTP debate right now (Sunday 2/10) and JNP talked about two items I'm not familiar with.

First, JNP said something about changes in the tax code that penalized labor unions. There have certainly been many challenges to labor unions' ability to organize workplaces, but what's Jack referring to in the tax code? The only thing in the tax code I can think of that would apply to labor unions would be their PAC designations...?

Secondly, JNP used the word "depression" to characterize the current economic situation. This seems to bear explanation to me. I remember our last major recession in this country, and the current economic situation seems no worse than that. What am I missing? How does Jack differentiate between "depression" and "recession," or is he just sensationalizing the economic condition?

More info would be greatly appreciated...

Suffering from cabin fever, I burned up a gallon of diesel and motored out to today's McLeod County convention in Glencoe. Franken got only a couple more folks to subcaucus for him than Ciresi, giving Franken 3 delegates to Ciresi's 2 with Nelson-Palmeyer easily viable and earning 1 delegate. Ciresi seems to be picking up the young delegates too, with all but one of the handful of 18 year olds caucusing for him.

I realize that Franken people are a bit enthusiastic, however no way does that column add up to 28274. So your conclusions are also a bit off. Maybe instead of trying to be Fox, we could just wait for the process to run its course, instead of pre-empting it with a couple of straw polls. This is fluid race, everyone can and may change their minds.

I beg to differ on your straw poll totals listed above. Franken did not have a total of 28,274 votes, as you suggested. I added the votes up and he got 2,858 votes.
This misrepresentation of the data makes Franken appear much stronger than he really is.
While these numbers may be of some value, it is important to remember that the vast majority of precincts did not take a straw poll for the senate race.
I'm interested to know how other people have felt while watching the debates and listening to the candidates on the radio. I have heard both Franken and Ciresi state multiple times that Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is correct on his stance on various issues. JNP seems to be a clear winner in the majority of these debates. As JNP's name recognition grows, I am certain that the polls will begin to lean in his favor.

I called every phone number at least once from my 2004 precinct list (Minneapolis Ward 11, precinct 8) before the caucus. I talked to maybe 35-45 people total. The Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer supporters were clear and firm in their convictions for him.

The Ciresi people weren't that many and seemed to be party establishment types who knew him.

The Franken people, and the Undecideds, were mostly anybody but Coleman types. Of those I talked to who were for Franken, they were for him because they knew him best, prefered him over Ciresis, and wanted a win. They either didn't know Jack, or knew of him and were intrigued and really like Jack.

Most Franken supporters and Undecideds who engaged in a conversation with me ended up either switching on the spot to Jack, or promising to look deeper into Jack's campaign. They all seem pretty intrigued about the way his campaign is growing. I didn't talk to anyone who is excited about Franken and what he stands for, but I kept talking to people who are excited about Jack and what he stands for.

To the original discussion of the KSTP debate, I was pleased with the format and the very first question – would you have voted for the economic stimulus package knowing that it would raise the national debt?
Debt financing is a real question and as my per commentary , this legislation is tilted too heavy with business incentives that may have the same effect as Pawlenty’s JOBZ program that the legislative audit says “helped businesses that would have expanded even without aid.” Although it was good that all three denounced the debt portion, this could largely be the difference between an incumbent and a challenger’s view.

The Health Care question should have been phrased in the same manner.
Why do we care if Jack, Mike or Al has the better plan?
The question should have been, “Considering Clinton and Obama’s Health Care Plans, what do you like about them, what do you dislike, what aspect of your plan would be consistent with their plans, and lastly, is Clinton’s plan or Obama’s plan better ?”
If there is going to be a national health care program, it will be driven by the President … not by Al, Mike or Jack.

Regarding Mike’s attack on Al’s Iraq war stance, Ciresi used the same tactic during the MPR debate on February 5th. It came across as disingenuous then and to follow up yesterday with the same type of rant indicated that he thought it worked then … it didn’t. But at least it gave Franken a chance to warm up for Coleman’s Sleaze and Smear tactics in the fall.

I thought that Franken won.
I have not been a Franken supporter as too often I have found him to go for the humor card --- and he just doesn’t seem at ease when first approached by a reporter. Once the issues are being discussed, then you realize that Franken is not only knowledgeable, but also has good judgment.

Franken is an ignorant jerk with terrible judgment. But he kicked ass at the caucuses. Stop pretending he's not going to be the nominee.

Take a look at the final numbers of delegates from the Straw Polling for Franken, (2858), Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer(624), Ciresi(589), Uncommitted (310). My calculations give that a total of 4381 delegates. Franken got 65%, Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, 14%, Ciresi 13%, Uncommitted 7%.

Here's what you say happened:
Here's the few straw polls on the MN-SEN race I talke about earlier. This is interesting because it agrees with the poll I talked about earlier that shows Al with 42% among DFLers with Mike trailing with 18% and Jack with a paltry 3%.

Jack (14%) had more than Ciresi (13%), not a paltry 3%. The straw polling shows Jack has much more strength than the earlier poll suggested.

Thanks, Eric, for moving this from the other blog post : )

I would LOVE JNP folks to answer these questions that I posted before:

"First, JNP said something about changes in the tax code that penalized labor unions. There have certainly been many challenges to labor unions' ability to organize workplaces, but what's Jack referring to in the tax code? The only thing in the tax code I can think of that would apply to labor unions would be their PAC designations...?

Secondly, JNP used the word "depression" to characterize the current economic situation. This seems to bear explanation to me. I remember our last major recession in this country, and the current economic situation seems no worse than that. What am I missing? How does Jack differentiate between "depression" and "recession," or is he just sensationalizing the economic condition?"

I'd really like an answer to the second question, in particular. Was Jack speaking in hyperbole when he said we were in a depression?