I Saw the Cop Car Get Smashed
Submitted by Charley Underwood on September 13, 2008 - 8:24pm.
Along with the Macy's window, the photos of the smashed police car are the iconic pictures that are most used to justify massive police violence last week during the Republican National Convention. A few days ago, I was surprised to learn that a friend of mine had actually witnessed that event as it happened. His account sheds a completely different light on the meaning of the week.
Phil Grove is someone I have known for perhaps 10 years, and I trust his observations completely. He is a lawyer who worked for many years in the Attorney General's office and has worked in a legal capacity with immigration groups and with others. His blog was originally posted at http://philgrove.blogspot.com At the time of the incident in question, Phil was volunteering as a legal observer with the National Lawyers Guild.
"I Saw the Cop Car Get Smashed" by Phil Grove
I saw, from across the street, the smashing of the cop car at the RNC demonstrations in Saint Paul. There were some surprising things about it that people should be aware of.
It was early in the afternoon on Monday, September 1, before most of the police misconduct I have heard about started to occur. The legal demonstration that took place within “The Cage” was still happening. It seems to me that the cops got a lot more aggressive after the the legal demonstration was done.
The cluster I was following was totally nonviolent and nonthreatening, but they were not on the approved parade route. They were a small group, and seemed to be looking for other clusters to join up with. The cops had been extremely intimidating, for example filling the streets with police cruisers with sirens blaring at maximum volume and rushing our little cluster from behind, but had not yet harmed anyone that I saw. When the cluster I was following was faced with a line of determined cops, they looked for another route, trying to avoid being completely surrounded. Finally, another cluster of demonstrators was seen ahead, and our group ran to join them. We caught up with them at the intersection where the cop car was sitting, in the street just outside the intersection. The line of cops who had been following us all along was right behind us, of course.
Soon after our group got to the intersection, people started striking the cop car. I saw no cop in or around the cop car, but they were definitely near the intersection and had to be watching this. I recall several blows with some pause in between. In other words, it didn't happen with a few instantaneous blows, but seemed more stretched out than that. I believe I saw the people who struck the cop car take off through a parking lot. I saw nobody pursuing them. I was scared, expecting vigorous retaliation from the cops. But nothing happened. No tear gas, no rubber bullets, no stun grenades, no hitting, no yelling at people through loudspeakers. I don't even remember sirens. In retrospect, the whole thing was most puzzling.
The cops had seemed to have no trouble following and monitoring our little group. When they didn't want us to take a particular route, they seemed to crystallize in a line in front of us. They seemed quite in command of the situation, willing to let us march around peacefully in the streets, but keeping a close eye on us.
The group we joined up with just before the cop car was smashed was a larger group. They were openly in the street, not moving about secretively, and putting out a lot of vigorous energy. They had to be getting more police attention than our group. I am certain the police were monitoring them closely and knew where they were and where they were headed at all times. And if they were concerned about vandalism, the police knew this was a group to watch. The group was not coming across as a group of delegates out for a stroll.
Why, then, was a cop car left unattended in the street, right in their path? Why did the cops watch as the cop car was getting smashed up, and take no obvious, vigorous action? True, there was a group of people in the intersection between the cop car and the nearest uniformed cop that I saw, but it is most surprising that it would be that easy to prevent the cops from intervening. Why didn't they just surround everybody after this happened and arrest everybody in sight? I believe they could have done this, but they didn't -- if I'm not mistaken, there were no mass arrests until later in the day. Nor did I see obvious, vigorous pursuit of the cop car smashers. Could people really get away with something like that, at least for at time, by running through a parking lot?
Or perhaps was there a plan to allow a cop car to get smashed, in order to use the incident to discredit the demonstration? Everybody knows that the police use provocateurs at this kind of event. Is that what I witnessed? My impression was that the cops could easily have prevented the incident.
Admittedly, my memory of the incident is somewhat foggy. I was scared. I had planned to be a set of eyes and ears at this demonstration, without seriously endangering myself or getting arrested. But being that close to the smashing of a cop car, I had a pretty good idea that I was about to get arrested, probably after first getting my butt kicked. But it didn't happen. I walked away from the intersection, and followed my little cluster, and later another one, around downtown for another hour or two. I got within a few feet of delegates, and loudly pleaded with them not to be complicit in war crimes and torture. They smirked and kept walking. They didn't seem afraid. “Join us!” I yelled. They didn't.
Post Script: After writing this account, I found an account by a journalist for the Minnesota Independent who was "embedded with the anarchists," apparently the group that my little group joined. She reports that some of the anarchists were critical of the individuals who broke windows . It leaves the impression that this was not planned by the group.
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The Minnesota Independent article
The Minnesota Independent article that Phil mentions was published at http://www.minnesotaindependent.com/6699/embedded-with-the-anarchists-dispataches-from-rnc It is by Molly Priesmeyer and is titled, "Embedded with the 'anarchists': RNC protests day one." It was published on the evening of September 1.
So, what's your point?
Are you saying the cops should have arrested everyone before they smashed up the car? I thought you were of the opinion that the cops shouldn't have been doing anything.
Looks like you're just thrashing around in all directions for something, anything, to whine and moan about.
Let me put this very simply for you.
I think the police should arrest people when they have broken the law. I don't think the police should arrest people for thinking thoughts that the police disagree with. I don't think the police should arrest people for having unpopular political philosophies. I think police should be as much responsible to the rule of law as I am. I think that the police are responsible for catching those who break the law, not punishing people at some whim by showering them with pepper-spray in their eyes or jolting them repeatedly with tasers. That is not policing; that is torture. Let the judges dish out the punishments according to the law and according to the constitution.
This situation during the RNC stinks. This is one of several cases where is looks like the police either provoked an illegal action or at least allowed an illegal action, possibly as a justification for the massive display of martial law at the hands of anonymous storm troopers last week.
Really I don't know why the police failed to take action when they apparently saw crimes committed, then resorted to massive displays of force against citizens, media, medics and mere bystanders. There are several logical explanations, of course. First, the person who smashed the police car may have been a provocateur, a paid agent of the police themselves. Second, the police may have intentionally allowed the breakage to occur, thus justifying those same actions later. Third, I will admit that it is possible that the particular officers who saw the car get smashed were simply lazy clock-watchers who didn't really care that much, while the massive display of civil liberties violations occurred at the hands of others.
Can you think of any other reason why the police would simply watch a patrol car get smashed and not do a single thing to prevent it or to apprehend the perp?
As a matter of fact, I can.
"Can you think of any other reason why the police would simply watch a patrol car get smashed and not do a single thing to prevent it or to apprehend the perp?"
If the cops were not in a position of overwhelming superiority, they would not do anything to enrage a crowd of rioters. It is highly likely that they made a decision to wait until they had the resources in place to contain the situation.
The public doesn't send it's police into a riot to lose. We expect them to quickly and efficiently squash it before it gets completely out of hand.
Given the relativly light damage that was done, and especially given the fact that the rioters from Texas and Michigan were unable to deploy the firebombs they had constructed I'd say the cops did a very, very good job.
BTW, do you happen to have the names of the people that were arrested for thought crimes? How about everyone that was charged for being a Democrat?
Thought not.
"not in a position of overwhelming superiority"
Ouch, I am laughing so hard!
There was about 5 battalions of fully equipped riot squads plus horse cops and bicycle cops. There were 3,500 police hired for the RNC.
So, are you suggesting.
That 5 battalions of fully equipped riot squads plus horse cops and bicycle cops were standing there watching some kook trash a car?
I must have missed the part where Charley said that.
The fact is, that I have heard (but have no proof) that the cops Charley saw were unarmed, reserve cops.
You hear anything like that Charley?
Well I saw it, I was in St Paul
5 battalions of fully equipped riot squads plus horse cops and bicycle cops were on the streets that day, within several blocks of that situation. Just how many cops does it take to be an overwhelming force for unarmed people in normal clothes?
How many blocks is several?
And what were they doing? Were they already protecting other innocent bystanders from the leftist rioters?
I think Charley might have more information than he's chosen to share...am I right, Charley?
Next time
Next time you should go downtown, I had no threat from anyone but police. The ones who were hurting people were police. Check out my story about the maced reporter, look at the pictures and then multiply that by many.
What I know and what I saw
I know that my son's two best friends were pepper-sprayed in front of Mickey's Diner on that Tuesday night while following police instructions and after they had left the area they had been told to leave. They had not even been involved with any march or protest, but had been swept up in a permitted march whose permit had been revoked. Initially, they had been unable to leave when ordered, because lines of storm troopers blocked their way. After storm troopers moved aside and after they had left the area, they were both pepper-sprayed for no reason that I can understand. This was my previous blog "Jessica's story."
I know that a young girl was pepper-sprayed while offering a flower to a storm trooper. I saw her face. I talked with her and with her two friends. I later saw the video of it happening. You can read my account "The girl with glitter on her shoulders." You can watch the video yourself.
I saw the Fox 9 footage of the young girl getting repeatedly pepper-sprayed and struck by a police officer's bicycle, all while giving the "peace" sign and repeating over and over "I love you" as she withstood extremely painful chemical weapon attacks that are illegal in international warfare. The Fox reporter herself was almost in tears, astounded that the girl could remain standing. You can watch the video yourself, or maybe you saw it on television that night.
I have one young friend who was stopped near my house and held without charges, face to the sidewalk, weapons trained on her, as she asked why she had been stopped. The officer replied that he really didn't know. She was released with no charges, the apparent purpose of intimidation having been accomplished.
You may know know that about 200 people had weapons pulled on them the weekend before the RNC began, but only 8 were eventually arrested. Some of those were preschool-aged children. I have seen the plastic handcuffs, witnessed the broken doors, seen the still pictures of police with their guns leveled against vegetable truck driver and passers-by on the streets.
I have spoken with friends rounded up on Shephard Road that Monday night, heard their stories of entire families rounded up while walking back from a concert, heard their stories of the tear gas shot from boats on the river that night, enclosing even young children in toxic clouds.
I know stories that I cannot tell, stories so hideous and painful that telling them would further harm the victims beyond all conscience and justification. That is how deep the pain of the convention still is for some.
I know that 43 journalists were arrested for covering the stories of massive police repression. Their names and organizations are listed over at the Minnesota Independent. You can read it yourself.
I know that 27 street medics (like me) were arrested in the course of treating over 1,000 people for injuries, mostly at the hands of the storm troopers. I met quite a few of them myself, and worked with two of them who had been arrested on Monday night, then were arrested again the Thursday night we worked together. I missed arrest myself because I was treating a young man's eyes for chemical contamination, and the storm troopers walked right by me. I can promise you that neither of those two young medics wanted to get arrested, nor did they do anything to get arrested; they were pushed onto the Marion Street bridge by bicycle officers, mounted police and then storm troopers.
Over the course of five days working as a street medic (I began the day before the convention started, during the Veterans for Peace march), I never once saw an unarmed police officer or auxiliary officer in the downtown area. I can tell you that I saw almost entirely heavily armed people dressed in heavy black riot gear, complete with gas masks, tasers, chemical weapons of all sorts, and absolutely no markings to identify them either as individuals, nor by which unit they came from. You couldn't tell if they were state troopers, National Guard, police from central Illinois or Iowa, or even Blackwater. Hell, you couldn't even tell if they were male or female, and they never answered a single question so their voices could identify them.
The only police auxiliary I saw were the folks who were camped out on the bridges over I-94, paid by the St Paul police to wave the delegate buses through. I know because I stopped on the way home and asked them who they were; they looked like they were having a number of small tail-gate parties, with their coolers and all. It is always possible, of course, that anonymous storm troopers were sent to control the large permitted and peaceful parades and that 80-year-old unarmed auxiliary police were sent to follow the so-called anarchists, but such a command decision would certainly surprise me. Do you really think that is likely, Woot?
The biggest thing I know is that St Paul was a city under siege during the RNC, that minor incidents were either staged or allowed in order to justify massive police repression of ordinary citizens who broke no laws and participated in no conspiracy. Or perhaps they merely wanted to justify the $50 million spent.
Woot, you describe all this as "whining and moaning." You are certainly entitled to you opinion and free to name-call whenever you wish. But to me, we lost the very freedoms that many brave Americans have died for, and I do not consider it a trivial loss.
I am sorry that you do not see the significance in observations that discount the entire motivation for the paramilitary siege that hit St Paul. You apparently have a strong need to believe that those who were brutalized by the black-suited storm troopers must have deserved what they got. I saw too much with my own eyes and heard too many stories from people I trust to reach that conclusion. I am sorry that you cannot see what is if front of your own eyes, Woot, because it is also your freedom that is disappearing.
WOW!
That may have been the most words tossed at a question and still miss an answer I've ever seen, Charley.
The question was about the topic you posted on in the first place, in the title...remember?
"I have heard that the cops you (Charley) saw watching a cop car get smashed were unarmed, reserve cops."
So, um, once again...You hear anything like that, Charley? Simple yes or no would be good.
Alright, I'll let you off the hook.
Google is a really handy thing, isn't it, Charley?
"I just want to respond to the part in the story sent by Charlie about the "cops" at the intersection that were watching a police vehicle being attacked and did nothing about it."
"Those were not "cops" (or "officers", as I like to call them). They were Police Reserve Officers - volunteers - who were at the intersection to direct traffic away from the marchers. We (reserve officers) carry no weapons at all and are ordered to not become involved in altercations (thereby becoming potential victims). We also have no power to arrest anymore than the average person on the street that can do a "citizen's arrest". Therefore, those reserve officers would not have been jumping in there to stop the incident.
Gloria E. Bogen
West Side = Best Side
St. Paul Police Reserve Officer since 1997"
I found this succinct answer on an e-mail forum that you had posted to.
Why is it so hard to just admit an error, Charley? Is your worldview really so fragile that any little bit of contrary fact will shatter it?
Why would you go so far as to postulate ridiculous flights of fancy when you obviously had the truth handed to you on a plate?
I just don't get it.
Not being there
Here is your problem in not being there, the traffic controllers were very identifiable in orange vests. They were directing traffic where traffic was, which was on this day far from these activities.
You are communicating with people who were on the streets of St Paul when it was happening.
So, Grace
Just so I have this straight:
50lbs of sand isn't as bad as 50lbs of concrete when dropped from a bridge onto cars.
Just because the US Attorney says they confiscated eight of them, the police really can't say they "found" firebombs.
When a guy arrested with what the US Attorney, and the cops call firebombs, says "I'm going to set some cops on fire, and if they get burned, it will be worth it" he is, basically, a funny jokey guy.
And you're saying that Gloria Bogan is a liar.
That about cover it, Grace?
50?
First of all where do you get 50lbs? As near as I can tell that is a complete lie that you just made up. So Woot, you are not blogging under your real name? Must be nice to hide and not be responsible for what you say!
You sure do sound alot like Swiftee!
Allllllrighty then...
Sacks of sand (of undeterminate weight) aren't as bad as sacks of concrete (of the same undeterminate weight) when dropped from a bridge onto cars.
Just because the US Attorney says they confiscated eight of them, the police really can't say they "found" firebombs.
When a guy arrested with what the US Attorney, and the cops call firebombs, says "I'm going to set some cops on fire, and if they get burned, it will be worth it" he is, basically, a funny jokey guy.
And you're saying that Gloria Bogan is a liar.
That about cover it, Grace?
I am saying you are a liar
You were not there, you make up stuff all the time and twist lies by taking quotes out of context.
Ah...ad hominum
Guess we've drained all of the amusement to be had out of this thread.
Keep up the great reporting, Grace. You're really something special!
Short words, short sentences, Woot
(Although you really should do something about that short attention-span. Maybe play fewer video games and maybe even read a book from time to time. You see, real life is often more complicated than Grand Theft Auto. It sometimes takes more than one syllable and more than 3 sentences.)
1. I wasn't there. It was the lawyer who wrote that account. I just gave an intro, then copied.
2. Gloria Bogen wasn't there either. (She also wrote more than 3 sentences.)
3. Nobody, including Reserve Officer Gloria Bogen, has so far said that it was unarmed Reserve Officers on the scene.
4. I contacted the lawyer. Yup, he said they were mostly wearing black riot suits, some were mounted on horses, others were in patrol cars. The little band the lawyer followed was repeatedly charged and menaced by both patrol cars (sirens blaring) and horses. Doesn't sound like little old lady Reserve Officers to me. Does it to you?
5. I have contacted Gloria Bogen off-list, with these follow-up questions. So far I haven't heard back from her.
My view: Everyone should be responsible under the law for what they do. If someone drops even a small rock onto the freeway, they should expect to get arrested. Whether law enforcement officers or civilians. Do you disagree? So why weren't the vandals in this case arrested, with 3,500 mostly riot-clad officers on the scene and following just a few feet behind them?
My question: Was this smashed car window a staged incident or a set-up? It looks like it from where I stand. Have you got someone arrested for the destruction who is NOT a law enforcement officer or paid by them? Maybe a confession.... At this point, I frankly don't know. But it smells bad to me.
Did Gloria Bogan write this?
"Nobody, including Reserve Officer Gloria Bogen, has so far said that it was unarmed Reserve Officers on the scene."
Huh. This quote was lifted from saint paul e-mail forum. It's in response to the same post you've left here. It is signed "Gloria Bogan".
"Those were not "cops" (or "officers", as I like to call them). They were Police Reserve Officers - volunteers - who were at the intersection to direct traffic away from the marchers.
We (reserve officers) carry no weapons at all and are ordered to not become involved in altercations (thereby becoming potential victims)."
Are you saying that someone else wrote this and signed "Gloria Bogan's" name to it, Charley?
I agree that the morons that broke those windows should be arrested; there is still a good chance they will.
Very often, idiots who do stupid crap like this start naming names as soon as they realize they are facing jail.
Did you know that the cops caught the kid that broke the Macy's window? I have read leftists elsewhere say that it was a cop that did that too.
This same kid also stars on some film of him and his pals throwing a highway sign (of indeterminate weight) off of a highway bridge...guess they had run out of sand bags (of indeterminate weight).
Too many video games, Woot
Read what she wrote. She describes the presence of Reserve Officers somewhere in St Paul, but nowhere does she claim that those were the officers that witnessed the police car getting smashed. I have emailed her with a request for clarification, but so far she has chosen not to respond. I had a long talk with the lawyer I quoted, however. He is quite clear that the majority of those present were riot-clad storm troopers mixed with a few bike police. They certainly were armed and quite well-protected by their gear. They were behaving quite aggressively, which is not at all the role of volunteer civilians whose job is to direct traffic. They were NOT Reserve Officers, according to him.
If you can get a clarification from Gloria Bogen, I will be delighted to hear from her.
Forgive me for not taking on too many cases at once here. You have probably heard of the myth of professional protester. Unfortunately, I have a very demanding full-time job and limited time and resources to dig up dirt on the deceptions. It's not like I have $50 million to create complicated scenarios, or even a few thousand bucks to cover them as a journalist. So I am taking these deals one at a time.
I am getting quite a bit of information about the fracas on Shephard Road Monday evening, but I just haven't had time to follow up on the Macy's window so far. If I hear something reliable, I contact you right here on this website.